Author Topic: Imagine and anti war protests  (Read 5605 times)

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Offline silvania

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Imagine and anti war protests
« on: September 02, 2009, 04:58:17 PM »
I got here through imagine which was sent to me and it made me go over other parts of the site so you succeeded with that, but not without annoying me with this one. I didn’t see enough yet and most is kinda new to me but for starters, here’s a tip: you wouldn’t want to insult you’re audience. Not all anti war protest can be dismissed as ineffective and irrelevant and not all activists are the naive flowers-in-the-barrel type. It’s 2009 not 1969.

SATS

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Re: Imagine and anti war protests
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2009, 04:04:54 AM »
I have no idea what you’re talking about, and I’m talking as a former protestor.
Imagine was among the first I had the chance to view and maybe because I’ve been there it spoke to me. I was one of the TEN million that got out to protest the Iraqi invasion back in the beginning of 2003 (I ‘m pretty sure several pictures in Imagine are from those demos). It felt like a huge reaction at the time, we all thought there’s no way to ignore such a mass in hundreds of cities. But apparently it was possible. All this noise hardly made any shift in the Bush/Blair policies.
You are wrong, the crowd in those pictures was very naïve, and five years later some still are but many aren’t.
I think that no one was that naïve to believe for a second that the bush administration invaded Iraq to liberate the Iraqis from the dictator "who gassed his own people" and to "give" them democracy. But some might believed the other "reasons".
Today someone would have to be dumb or ignorant to believe public opinion shapes policies, especially since the U.S. and the oil giants made a fool of the few who really believed the war is about the Iraqi connection to Al Qaeda (which was never proven) or Iraq’s supposedly weapons of mass destruction (that were never found) and even of the ones who didn’t believe a word he said like myself but watched with the whole world how they bended the Iraqi parliament’s hands to privatize the oil while insisting the war is not about oil. The whole world watched as the U.S. invaded Iraq and blackmailed it for valuable natural resources, and this aggressive, predictable move was made in such a blunt manner it didn’t leave any doubt that no one minds a bit of the protests, it will eventually die down and the oil fraudulentness in the disguise of “operation Iraqi freedom” will be successfully activated.
I remember reading a criticism saying you can’t claim the mass global demos of 2003 didn’t make history; after all they’ve gone down in the Guinness book of records as the largest antiwar rally ever to take place!
Those recent absurd occurrences made the viewing experience such an intense one. 

Euthanasia brigade

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Re: Imagine and anti war protests
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2009, 09:22:42 AM »
Not all anti war protest can be dismissed as ineffective and irrelevant and not all activists are the naive flowers-in-the-barrel type. It’s 2009 not 1969.
Thanks for directing my attention to this video. Watched it three times and the more I watched, your massage seemed more bizarre. Also the more I got annoyed! These are the last people that need a reminder it’s four decades past 1969!  You didn’t watch World Peace? you should. Sorry for reviling its content- presenting a terrifying statistics of 2-3 new armed conflicts breaking each year in the world! That’s hundred wars since the radical revolutionary days of 69! hundred wars!!! Sorry but anyone still holding a sign nowadays has earned each note of the dumb Imagine tune. And anyone watching this video getting defensive instead of ashamed and depressed about how nothing helps all those victims have no heart!

Offline E.A.S

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Re: Imagine and anti war protests
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2009, 10:45:10 AM »
Imagine’s purpose is definitely not to mock or disrespect activists. We admire anyone who will not accept life as they are and invest time and effort to change what they believe should be different. We don’t mock but criticize activists that for the completeness of their world view and self image will not look around and will not learn from history.
And before the usual, banal, worn out and wearying question “do you expect us not to protest? Are we supposed to be quiet while a war is going on?” will rise…
Yes. I expect you not to do what was done so many times in the past but never helped.
I expect you to learn from history and not to be so pretentious thinking that you can do what many did before but so much better, thinking that now it will succeed.
If no protest has ever stopped any war, then keep protesting against wars is for the sake of the protesters and not for the sake of the direct victims of the war.
I think that personal reasons as self-determination and infiltrating meaning into meaningless lives, are the reasons why people keep protesting, because the ineffectiveness of these sort of actions was long ago proven.

There is something beautiful in the activists’ determination to say what they think to the decision makers, but after a while when the failures pile up, to continue with the same inefficient methods is ugly not beautiful because then they do it for themselves not for the objectives of the protest. We are long ago in the point that the failures pile is so huge that only the ones who don’t want to see it can’t.   
If after decades of war protests no war has ever stopped it is time to think of something else. How about understanding that if there wasn’t one second of peace in this world, then it is probably human nature and with this kind of nature who needs humans?

Offline E.A.S

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Re: Imagine and anti war protests
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2009, 11:13:11 AM »
And that’s only peace among humans which is not only not enough for a true peace in the world, as vast as the problems between humans are, they are tiny in comparison to the unilateral war of humans against the rest of the species. So come on, what more do you need to know?

Eternal salvation

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Re: Imagine and anti war protests
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2009, 05:54:06 PM »
And that’s only peace among humans which is not only not enough for a true peace in the world, as vast as the problems between humans are, they are tiny in comparison to the unilateral war of humans against the rest of the species. So come on, what more do you need to know?
I agree 100%. The constant conquer of the earth is the never ending world war no one thinks about!
I like to add on a matter you touched that peace protesters should be criticized also for the slogan “not in our name” which is not accidental. It didn’t come out of nowhere. This is how these people think. Most of them are probably against wars as principle but will not do anything about it. Wars occur all the time but they will do something about it only when gets to their children and to their taxes.  I’m pretty sure that there wasn’t a moment without (humans against humans) war going on somewhere in the world in the entire 20th century if not the entire history of the horrible homo-sapiens. But only full time, devoted peace protesters demonstrate against any war anywhere. As far as I know the mass demonstrations against the war in Iraq mostly consisted of the “not in our name” approach. Are wars acceptable when they are in someone else’s name!?

Offline E.A.S

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Re: Imagine and anti war protests
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2009, 03:28:29 AM »
By the way from this discussion it might seem like imagine is about wars and it is actually about human suffering as a whole. We made a slideshow all about wars that was already mentioned and it is called world peace

Offline Earth to Venus

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Re: Imagine and anti war protests
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2009, 03:02:46 PM »
"there wasn’t one second of peace in this world"
The blood stained human history makes a solid prediction for an ever lasting general warfare state in the future. This took me back to a lecture I’ve heard and luckily was able to trace back and rehear, it’s called God and War by professor Mark Juergensmeyer from the University of California taken at Princeton, here’s the link. I strongly recommend you to take the time and watch it.
In generally he draws a very thin line between war and religion and in many cases bound them together. Not in the sense of a religion serving as grounds for wars or fueling them but in a sense of a common denominator between the two. Juergensmeyer explains how they function similarly; both provide alternative perceptions of reality, an alternative framework of order in a disordered society, provide meaning in a meaningless world and arrange it socially and existentially. Religion provides an alternative framework of order that reconcile life’s deep anomalies on a transcendent plane, especially in the sense of immortality since humans know from early age that they are mortal there is a great comfort in the idea of after life, reincarnation, reward and punishment and heaven and hell. So religion provides immortality, it gives meaning to death. It places the daily sufferings and anomalies in a greater context and that’s very comforting. And wars provide an alternative reality based on the moral absolutism of social conflict and that provides an important social comforting. Social tension creates a great opportune moment for wars to make sense, since they divide the world to black and white, good and bad, right and wrong, and humans’ Odd Appeal of War, as the professor calls it, add the emotional fuel.
Humans’ want to confront with disturbing reality scenes such as car accidents, terror attack, natural disasters and etc. the confrontation makes sense of the chaos. War too puts sense in a senseless situation. It is very freighting but there is something comforting in war. It creates a sense of control unity and meaningfulness. It arranges the world. It arranges the social anomaly. It is not rational but at least you know who you are (sometimes by defining what you are against) and what you are doing. There is a war there is a meaning.

The human need and even dependency on religion or at least god is nothing new but the connection to war in the philosophical plane was new to me. Wars need religion. It clarifies the nature of the struggle. Provides a moral justification to the killing. Demonize the enemy. It makes sense in bombing attack. Both are visions of humans’ consciousness, patterns of understanding reality and that’s why they will always be part of reality. And that’s a hell of a scary thought.

Offline E.A.S

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Re: Imagine and anti war protests
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2009, 02:53:04 AM »
Thanks for the reference Earth to Venus I’ve listened to the GOD AND WAR lectures and I found them really fascinating. I recommend them to everybody.

In the last part by the way, someone from the audience asked the lecturer about non-violent religions which he replied as no such thing. He even cited Mohandas Gandhi saying that sometimes you have to kill, giving two examples, one is of a sniper on a rooftop shooting people down below, if the only way so stop him is to shoot him it is justified, and the second is rapist in the act. Generally if you see violence in the process of happening you have to stop it by any means necessary.
This is what lecturer said that Ghandi said.

Not that I think that’s what should convince you but when so many activists cling on Ghandi which apparently justified the use of violence in the process of happening I wonder if he would have supported the O.O.S idea if he knew that every second millions of violent acts are executed against animals…?

 

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