Author Topic: same old all or nothing  (Read 4167 times)

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Offline Everyone matters

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same old all or nothing
« on: January 01, 2010, 11:00:51 AM »
I watched more than a couple of slideshows and they all got sucked in to the no good all or nothing view that reality doesn’t line up with
The most prominent example is Why
How can they call activism a waste of time? Helping one animal is everything to him or her.

Even if the OOS rules out advocacy (as if the rise of vegetarianism and veganism happen on its own –  each saves thousands of animals ) there are more direct approaches like ALF and open rescue no one can argue against their power to make an overnight different in the lives of animals

Re: same old all or nothing
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2010, 02:39:47 PM »
Many times after an ALF raid in labs animals are bought to replace the ones who were set free so breeders get more cash and another generation has to go through the pains of the experiment and the confinement all over from the starts…so the overall outcome can be arguable
Teaspoon’s view on advocacy is more to the point- each success is one ray of light in a room that’s getting darker and darker…   

Offline E.A.S

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Re: same old all or nothing
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2010, 04:05:46 PM »
That was definitely not the point we were trying to make. On the contrary, we think helping an animal is the best way to spend the little time in our hands, but not if in the equivalent time you can help two animals. That is our point. We didn’t mean a waste of time in a sense of doing a meaningless thing but in a sense of you can do better things with your time. We call it a waste of time because we know how valuable animal rights activists’ time is. With so little time and so many animals to help we want activists to spend it on much broader solutions.

It would have been a little silly of us to call animal activism a waste of time because that’s all we do and all we did for many years now, and all we plan to do in the rest of our time. The question is what are you doing with your time and we felt that we were giving all of it in the wrong place. More importantly for this discussion is that I am sure there are many activists who feel now how we felt before we started this project. We felt we were using the biggest hammer with all of our power not noticing it is a screw and not a nail that we are hitting. We made this slideshow because we know there are many activists who are looking for ways to help the animals but in the meantime still hammering screws and we want to offer them a screwdriver.

Please read the answers to the questions: Isn’t it an exaggeration? And Why not work hard to make a vegan world? In the FAQ section.

Re: same old all or nothing
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2010, 04:26:32 AM »
it is not a ray of light it is a photon and it is not a dark room it is a dark universe.

maybe the admin don’t want to be too aggressive or something but I can allow myself to say that advocacy is waste of time  In all senses
As an activist, you are a miniature particle that even regardless of the odds between the animal exploitation industries and the rest of the suffer factors in this horrible world, the animal rights/liberation/welfare/protection/defense or what ever you call it activists, don’t even aim at solving the problem but dealing only with the symptoms and it becomes a total waste of time when they can’t even deal with them. Considering this and you can’t really argue with this slideshow’s message. Animal rights advocacy is too little, at the wrong place and way too late.

Offline Everyone matters

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Re: same old all or nothing
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2010, 12:03:10 PM »
I’ve seen teaspoon and if the tea resembles suffering animals than if all you got is a teaspoon that’s what you should use and save as much as you can.

Offline E.A.S

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Re: same old all or nothing
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2010, 04:27:43 PM »
The teaspoon doesn’t resemble suffering animals but the methods you are using in your attempt of saving animals from suffering.
Our problem is not with you trying to save as much as you can but with your definition of as much as you can. The boat resembles the suffering animals and if you keep using a teaspoon the boat will keep sinking.

But enough with the slogans, they are good for a slideshow not for a forum.
I think there is a problem with the sense of responsibility in your attitude. If you visited our website and bothered writing in this forum it means you want to discuss the issue and you have at least some room for acceptance.
I think it is most important that you’ll be convinced that you must think and act as if you are responsible for all the suffering, not in the sense of causing of course but in the sense of saving.
As I already explained there is no doubt in the significance of saving one animal. We don’t say or imply in none of our texts (including why and teaspoon) and neither do I now in this discussion, that since there are so many suffering animals helping one is insignificant.
I agree with your nickname as a philosophical approach but not as an activistic approach. As activists we must seek to solve problems from the roots. We must hope and long to stop all the suffering. For me the fact that everyone matters is a reason to try and help them all, because as you say all of them matter.

The problem is not with helping someone in a time of need when you bumped into the situation or when the situation bumped into you (as happened to us all I am sure), the problem is with managing a whole activism life on the basis of sporadic help to someone and then another one and then another one and tomorrow maybe another one.
If instead of looking for the source of the suffering that all these ‘ones’ endure and deal with it we’ll keep focusing on helping each one while more are being produced and in a much faster rate than we are able to help the ones we can, it will never end.
Random activities to help one animal are blessed, but managing an entire activism career on that basis is immoral and irresponsible, it is consciously letting the roots of the suffering continue cleaning your own conscience, feeling essential and influential.
And that brings me to the reason why I think this approach is so popular. There is a serious romanticization of the "it will help this one" approach and it is understandable since it is so hard to comprehend the massive numbers of suffering creatures and stay sane not to mention influential and full of hope and motivation. However this approach is very dangerous as an activistic conduction. Very soon activists feel hopeless and helplessness and so there is an inner trend of romanticization, you can call it - the perceptibility of the personal influence. It’s freighting how obvious it seems to activists that the goals are set by the likelihood of accomplishment and not by the urgency determined by the level of suffering and number of sufferers.
This abstemiousness is motivated by many activists as an attempt to keep others in the group and sometimes to keep them vegan and that is of course absolutely justified, the problem is when the hopeless and helplessness dictate the agenda.
Even if many activists nowadays try not to think about a vegan world but about the next vegan it is clear that a vegan world is the goal. When they refuse to think about the possibility of a vegan world to become (and we add about the possibility of a vegan world to become sufferingless), they disregard the chance that it might be impossible and perhaps they should look for other plans of action. This approach nullifies the option that maybe a vegan world is not an option. I know it is not a conspiracy and I know it is not their goal, but it’s a serious obstruction in the way of current activists and future activists who should constantly search for a way to address the source of the problem. It sets the bar so low that many activists are sure it is o.k to be satisfied with converting a few people or even dozens of people’s diets into a vegan diet instead of thinking how to stop all the suffering. If activists will hear all the time that everything they do is good and important and that everything influences, many won’t even think that they should long to end it all, that they should aspire to influence all.

The fact that everyone matters is a reason to try to help as many as possible it is not an excuse to disregard the mass numbers and be happy with helping one.
And if to borrow the lighting analogies made earlier in this discussion, even though every photon matters, when you can affect the whole darkening room or at least don’t know yet that you can’t, you mustn’t be satisfied with just a few photons.



« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 03:26:53 AM by O.O.S »

Re: same old all or nothing
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2010, 06:08:42 AM »
This approach is so self centered because rationally focusing on the fact that each animal is a whole universe supposed to be the most depressing thought. The idea of thinking about one animal which is an individual with feelings and longings and desires and yearnings and pain and pleasure and etc supposed to depress you even more because there are billions just like this one. The thought that each of them is an individual, a whole universe, that each long, desire, yearn, and etc is the most depressing thought existed. The fact that this thought is what comforts you is a proof that all you are focused on is yourself and your desire to feel that you make a difference, that you are important. It is all about you. It is all about you wanting to see the change in your own eyes.
There is no sense in trying to think about the individual instead of the massive numbers because the massive numbers represent the number of exploited individuals.
Who are you kidding? Factory farms are massive amounts of suffering individuals!

Offline E.A.S

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Re: same old all or nothing
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2010, 07:46:08 AM »
Instead of thinking there is only one individual I can help in each action think that there is only one action that can help all the individuals.

Offline Everyone matters

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Re: same old all or nothing
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2010, 09:33:44 AM »
I really appreciate your answer and I think you made a few good points but I prefer to continue this discussion personally over emails if it is o.k with you.

Offline E.A.S

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Re: same old all or nothing
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2010, 10:06:55 AM »
sure

 

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