Author Topic: Nudity  (Read 9226 times)

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Eternal salvation

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Nudity
« on: December 02, 2009, 05:32:30 AM »
Getting attention by nudity is sexism, objectification and chauvinism. It degrades us animal rights activists and much more importantly it degrades the message we try to pass. As if we can’t deliver a message without a cheap provocation.

Offline takin

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2009, 07:25:52 AM »
We can’t. People don’t listen. Some means of provocation are needed and nudity is very appealing. Moreover, what is wrong with showing people that there are other ways to entertain ourselves and each other and for such a good cause?
And regarding the sexism and objectification, everyone is doing that out of their own free will and again for a good cause, for the sake of animals so I don’t understand what your problem is. And about chauvinism, maybe you are misinformed but men are allowed and indeed choose to run naked as well.

Eternal salvation

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2009, 09:10:49 AM »
The fact that in some campaigns and particularly the nude run, men also undress is marginal because it is pretty obvious that it’s the women who attract most of the attention, because allow me to roughly generalize – it is much easier to amuse men by even the slightest bare skin, so the target audience is obvious and your just pretending to be naive.

Offline E.A.S

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2009, 10:16:24 AM »
I agree with you Eternal salvation. If a coalition of body image organizations would decide to initiate an annual nude run I would understand and even agree because the nudity would play a totally different part, but it is not the case with running of the nudes. The exact and determined goal is to draw the attention of the public and the media from the running of the bulls festival. Even if it does draw a few people from the bulls run to the nudes run, I can’t see how a pathetic eagerness and voyeurism promote animal rights.

Euthanasia brigade

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2009, 12:38:44 PM »
If I may speak more blatantly, what the O.O.S admin is trying to say is how does the “surprising” preference of a few eager and horny assholes to look at some bouncing tits over running bulls, help the animals? How exactly does it change anything?

Offline E.A.S

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 02:43:41 AM »
Well phrased Euthanasia brigade…
Anyway the discussion about sexist animal rights activities is old and worn out and it is not what we are trying to say in “nudity” so I prefer to focus on the argument we did argue which is embodied in Takin response to Eternal salvation- They won’t listen and we must use the sexual provocation to get attention. Running of the nude is a perfect example of the despair and disbelief animal rights activists have in the chances for a real and profound change in the way humans seize non-humans, and that is the point of the slideshow.

Eternal salvation

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2009, 07:09:21 AM »
I know it is totally off topic and a worn out discussion as you say, I just watched it and guess I needed to take it of my chest

Offline vegmoz

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2010, 05:23:37 PM »
does nudity causes suffering? actually, it can change some people,but in any case, if OOS has already made the point very clear: it doesn't change anything, so why bother about this? if we think nudity is a problem for AR activism, we are implying that there could be better ways to do activism, but if we think that way then OOS does not have any sense.

Offline E.A.S

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2010, 04:32:04 AM »
I know that you didn’t mean it that way and I don’t want to get into a too technical philosophical argument that would be pretty useless here but just that they would be no misunderstandings, every action has a meaning and regarding activism we didn’t say that all of it is meaningless in every sense but only in the sense of an attempt to change the way humans seize non-humans or an attempt to convert them all to veganism or to outlaw every exploitive industry.

Breaking into an exploitation facility and liberate animals from there means everything for them. However it is meaningless in a broader perspective. These kind of actions as we appreciate the participators risking their freedom, wont change anything on global scale. So if to judge an action of this sort in a vacuum, it is great, but as part of changing the rest of the suffering creatures’ lives (who weren’t liberated in the specific action) it is meaningless, maybe even harmful because it seems unfortunately that theses actions awaking the authorities more than they inspire other activists to do more of these activities.
But all of this is besides the point and the most important thing I want to tell you is that even if there are better ways to do activism, as long as they wont seek for a sufferless world we should only get in to them after we know, not feel, not think, not guess, not suppose and not assume but know that this mission is impossible. Only then we should start analyzing what is the better way to do activism. But why start with the compromise? And even though it is a principle concept I am raising here I can’t ignore the tremendous compromise that is being done by activists.

What I am trying to say is that since the OOS initiative is much more critique of the mentality and perspective of the activists than what they choose to do.
Some of the actions that I participated in while I was a conventional activist who rather effective and some were a total waste of time. But now I realize that all of them were giving all I got in the wrong place.  

The best example I can think of is the whole veganism issue which was my single minded mission as well as my activism colleagues. We all missed the fact that as good as it is it would be a horrible world with billions of victims per year.
http://www.onlyonesolution.net/multimedia-articles/vegan_suffer_ff.html
or this one for Internet explorer:
http://www.onlyonesolution.net/multimedia-articles/vegan_suffer.html
Have you watch it by the way?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 04:50:55 AM by O.O.S »

Offline vegmoz

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2010, 06:05:29 PM »
oos

yes i saw your videos and i agree with the idea behind this site; that's why i pointed out in my prior comment that there's no point in discussing better or worst ways of doing AR activism. if we discussed them, then, we would be implying that maybe there are other solutions, so OOS would have no sense, right?

i say all of this because i don't understand why in this site an old issue in AR movement is being discussed i.e. nudity as a way of activism. I wasn't expecting to find that here. That belongs to the forums regarding the old (and useless) debate between francionists, peta followers, ALF, pragmatists, and so on. All those people do think there is a way to change this world into a one in which there's no animal exploitation (no suffering, since all of them don't take into account wild animals), in those forums, then, it could be worth to discuss if nude campaigns are useful tools or not.

But here?? I think your point would be more effective if you make a clear stament that it doesn't matter in which activism path you are, suffering in the world won't be abolished. I think you have an article about that, but it's not clear here in the forum.

Offline E.A.S

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2010, 06:03:20 AM »
I see your point and actually we are divided in that sense within our group. I personally feel that addressing every issue and deconstruct the arguments behind it, if there are any at all, is stating that there is no other option and that we are ready to deal with the suggested ones of the O.O.S idea opposers. In addition it is important to emphasize the impossibility of other options (that’s why in the manifest there is a big part called the negative argument for example) so if they are raised by activists we must try and show how irrelevant they are. However, some of us agree with you and think it absolutely pointless to discuss them under any circumstances.
In any case I think there is no chance that someone would read our manifest and FAQ and think that we live any room for other methods. As critique as I am regarding the animal rights movement, I find it hard to believe that activists would browse here a little and wouldn’t take the time to read the Manifest, FAQ or at least a few articles.

I think that since this website’s target audience is animal rights activists who unfortunately and disappointingly tend to stick to their convictions no matter how strong evidences are put in front of them, we have no choice but to confront them.
And speaking of which, allow me to use your strategic critique and invite ideological opposers to right down their thoughts and I promise to try and deal with each.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 06:08:28 AM by O.O.S »

Offline santa

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2010, 08:14:23 AM »
u said u used to be a activist (@Admin of O.O.S) and now u dedicate all u got to find how to carry out the oos
well what i would really love to know is a) why noone has answered either my email or pm.
and most of all i would love to know how much time u really spend on trying to find a solution, bc what i really do not understand is why we all must stop other activism (like rescuing dogs, veganism, etc.) , even if we havent got the slightest idea on how to find a soulution for ur idea....so if i have no clue i will only be sitting around doing allmost nothing while shelter dogs are being gassed and ppl continue eating meat etc. so why in all the world should i not help them in the meantime while still keeping a open eye for ur solution. it sounds like u have given up and also like u do not believe anyone can change, so how did u become vegan??? and do u guys still eat food???? i mean i really need to know all these things bc i care a lOT

Offline E.A.S

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2010, 06:17:06 AM »
I apologize for the late response. For security reasons we can’t check personal messages, emails and this forum frequently. That’s why all the responses are slow. We hope to find a secure solution for that problem. We don’t trust proxy servers 100% and there is too much on stake for us to take the chance. If you have any idea how we can do it securely it would be very efficient.  

We all invest all of our time trying to find the desirable solution including finding more people who will do everything they can to stop all the suffering in the world. Trying to enlarge the amount of activists in the OOS movement is what I personally focus on and from the moment the website, emails, cd’s and everything else regarding to the publication of the movement was finished, I do it alone, which is another reason for the relatively slow responses. The rest of the original crew has started science studies as part of the practical research.
And speaking of which, have you read our practical implementation materials?
We realize that the current versions are way too general and groundling. As we wrote, they are not operation guides but some leads that according to the short study we've done so far seem to hold potential. They are mere examples and I’m detailing them here not so you fix your mind on them, but to trigger your creativity so you can get started.
One of the reasons some of us have started science studies is to improve the current practical implementation materials as well as looking for a way to implement the idea ourselves, obviously.
I am sorry I can’t give more information than that because I don’t know who reads here and why. However that can be a relevant option for you as well.

Have you read the answer to the question what can I do? in our FAQ? Hopefully you’ll get a few clues how to start from there.

Regarding your question why we all must stop other activism, a lot of attention is given to explain this argument, in fact most of the website is dedicate to that issue. According to that question and actually your entire message, I guess you haven’t read the manifest or the FAQ. Please take the time and do. We addressed your questions there. Focus on the negative argument in the manifest, which thoroughly explains why we think you must stop every other activity and focus on the only way to stop all the suffering for good (as opposed to tiny fraction and only for a while, if at all), and in the FAQ section focus mainly on Why not work hard to make a vegan world?, The problem is that people don't know what is going on and O.k. I agree, but don’t you think it will take a lot of time and the chances are very small to succeed, so I better act within the conventional movement?

I am sure if you’ll read all of the above, you’ll be convinced to stop with the non-effective conventional activism and focus on solving the problem from the roots.

even if we havent got the slightest idea on how to find a soulution for ur idea....so if i have no clue i will only be sitting around doing allmost nothing while shelter dogs are being gassed and ppl continue eating meat etc

Are you suggesting keeping with the same activity even though you know it can’t really make a difference?
I don’t think that because you currently can’t find a clue how to get started you should keep doing pointless things. Conventional activism don’t, didn’t and wouldn’t help the suffering creatures. There are much more suffering creatures today than ever before in history.
Humans prove again and again and again and again and again that profits, taste preferences, convenience, amusement etc, are much more important to them than anything else. Most of them are not even willing to hear the facts and listen to the arguments, not to mention to stop financing animal abuse.

Wake up! Even when most of the public is against an exploitive industry, like in the case of seal hunting for fur or rodeos or cockfighting, dog fighting, ivory, and etc, it doesn’t matter. It is not enough. The world is changing because of economic and political reasons. Not because of moral reasons (you have a few examples in the article Trends). Bullfights still exist, in spite of the campaigns that the animal rights organizations run against them for decades, and in spite that most humans are against them. And if this is not enough for little and publicly unaccepted industries such as bullfighting, cockfighting and dog fighting, when will the chicken meat industry, which is more than 50 billion suffering animals per year industry, ever stop?

I know how painful it is to admit that activists rely on small achievements missing the bigger picture and fail to recognize the mechanism. So many honestly believe the state of animals improved since the movement was formed.

You asked me how did I become vegan? well the answer is after reading animal liberation. But after years of demonstrations, rallies, parades, vegan food stands, lectures, seminars, direct actions, graffiti, posters, flyers, liberations from factory farms and from laboratories, lobbyism and laws promotion and every other way I thought could help convince humans to stop taking part and financing animal exploitation, I realized I am giving all I’ve got in the wrong place.

It is really frightening to think how much animal suffer increased since Animal Liberation was first published. The global pigs meat production increased almost 3 times, egg production 4 times and chickens meat production by more than 5 times.
Since 1975 new industries have been formed joining the ones that already exist and constantly expand. New species became subjected to commercial exploitation, that intensify further all the time. The prices got cheaper and cheaper and a greater variety of available products was introduced to the market consecutively in the 45 years of the "animal liberation age".

The meat consumption per capita has increased in all countries in the world with no exceptions. The per capita demand in Asia has almost quadrupled since 1975.
The Middle Income Countries have triple their meat consumption since 1975 and it's now standing on about 50kg on average. China’s meat per capita consumption was quintupled since Animal Liberation was first published. And maybe the most freighting figure is that what is called developing countries are already catching up with the average global consumption and they were standing on third of today’s amount just in 1975. These countries also hold the highest population growth rate.

As you see, the future is not auspicious. The proportion between the number of humans who are potential animal rights supporters and potential vegans, and the number of humans who are not, will be even worse in the future.
In many cases the ones with the potential are against breeding or at least procreate "only" once or twice, as opposed to humans who are not animal rights potentials, which are the vast majority of the world anyway, that usually procreate at least 4 times in their life time. In a lot of cases even more.
In rough generalization, the more humans are distant from animal rights, human rights and environmental "issues", the more they procreate and vice versa. Therefore even the opposition to relatively small scale industries like veal calves, will be harder in the future.
No point in dreaming of a vegan world when the global course is the exact opposite.

Every second, 5 more humans are born. The suffer in the world is growing nominatively to the human population growth. Reducing the number of humans will necessarily reduce the amounts of suffer. Nothing else.

It’s the market forces and technology that dictate the reality for each and every creature in this world and especially for the hundreds of billions of animals raised in intensive factory farms. Every year tens of millions more are born into a life of suffer, and the numbers will keep rising until you realize that conventional activism can only gently nibble the edges of the mainstream but it can’t stop the main stream of suffer.

Time is our greatest enemy. Every second that life continues is extreme suffer for billions of creatures.

it sounds like u have given up

Not despair and disbelief, not hate or crave for revenge but the image of a world with no battery cages, no slaughterhouses, no laboratories, no rape and no hunger is our motivation.

And my question to you is why working on a vegan world when you can work on a sufferless world?
If you only wish to slightly improve the world, you can leave our website and continue with your current activity. If you wish to stop the suffer, leave your current activity and establish your own stopping all the suffer team.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 06:24:23 AM by O.O.S »

Offline santa

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2010, 07:55:18 AM »
Hi O.O.S

Thank you for replying. Yes i had read all the suggested Material but have done so again now. I still do not think its pointless to Rescue a Dog if i have the Means and the Animal needs to be rescued at that Momment when i see it. I still know that every one i saved is now happy and that is what made it worth. I do agree with you however, that the main goal of every moral Person should be to End ALL the Suffer. On the other Hand i do know my own Potential and i simply have not got the Contacts or Ressources or Knowledge you need. Which will anyway not Stop me though....i do know a few very serious Activists whom i will send the Link to ur website and i will def. keep my Eyes open and give as much time as possible to find a Answer u need to carry out the O.O.S. the other day i happened to watch TV, mainly bc u said the answer might come from there and i stumbled across something. i'm sending u a direct pm reg. that.

Offline E.A.S

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Re: Nudity
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2010, 05:49:02 AM »
You also asked us what do we eat and I guess the question comes after reviewing vegan suffer. Well as written in the article we are vegans. Although we know how harmful it is we are vegans because we don’t have any other option, and so do you and any other vegan out there.
We don’t have a choice but to take part in the long and complex web of intensive food production stages of plant based diet such as land clearing, plowing, irrigation, fertilization and pesticides dispersal, harvesting followed by a great deal of processing, packaging and transportation. Just as all other industries, all stages require vast amount of mechanization, energy, vivisection (products tests), pollutants and habitat destruction.
We know vegans don’t have a better choice and that is exactly the problem. In this world there are no moral options. There is no alternative to home racking, poisoning, polluting, fencing, deforestation, drilling habitats and etc.
This is the world and we refuse to let it continue.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 05:50:37 AM by O.O.S »

 

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